i received following comments from a person when i pasted this note in a discussion group. first i am pasting the comment and then the clarification i gave.
Comment:
Rajesh, I am going to make some comments about your post, but please don't take them as a personal criticism. I wonder if you are aware of a number of contradictions in what you wrote? Is it that you are not aware or that you are aware of them, but face the same problem as even the greatest masters, which is that it is quite impossible to speak about this topic without creating self-contradictions?
For example, you have this quote "one cannot reach there by studying or teaching, nor by intellect..." but your post is stuffed with all kinds of quotes and learned references which, by giving importance to book knowledge, seems to be denying the point of the first quote.
There is also the main contradiction between espousing the "desireless" state and yet at the same time encouraging all kinds of desires such as: "One must desire to understand the Infinite"; the desire for the loss of body consciousness; the desire to do tapas. So what's it to be the final verdict on desire?
Also, there is a very nice paragraph about the fact that all is one and so what is to be renounced and who is to do the renouncing? But in that case why have the previous paragraph suggesting renouncing body consciousness?
I'll stop there. But do you see what I mean? If you decide to respond you don't have to refer back to your original post, but just treat my post has a general observation on the self-contradictory nature of all spiritual texts and teachings. What is this telling us? Is it saying something about the nature of truth? Or just something about the limitations of the mind? And having seen all this how do we react? Do we find a new cleverer way to negotiate a path through the contradictions, or does the mind stop?
Reply:
what i wrote here is not my personal concept, so i should not take ur comments as personal. and i like good debates if it holds the purpose of knowing the truth than vain arguments to show their part is the only right.
coming back to ur comments about post i have to say the following points to clear your doubts about the subject.
if you want to share anything then you have to use the faculty of words, with out words none can explain anything to other. word are powerless to explain the truth. coz truth is beyond words and mind so every explanation to truth is a failure in the ultimate sense. so who ever try to explain the truth in words will end up with failure, even he is saint or prophet or whom so ever.
so naturally u can ask, if all words are failures then y should one speak or quote it.. its just because there is no other way to explain truth than this medium of words. you can know truth your own with out the help of words, but if you want to convey it to other then you should use the faculty of words. so thats y we use word or quotes to explain the points.. one who seeks the truth won't take the literary meaning and will understand the limitation of words.. words just a 'sign post' to point the truth. i just quote upanishad because its the only text that says you- don't take any words as truth because truth is beyond any theories. when one becomes disinterested in all type of theories and speculation then only he will reach the upanishadic stand and understand the beauty of their words, wich is beyond literal meaning. they used the words because of mercy not for any other purpose, they know wat they are explaining is not ultimate there is no other faculty to explain it, kena upanshiad beautifully explained this scenario- neither the eyes nor mind nor speech reach there(truth) so we dont know how to teach this truth to others, because its beyond all faculties of knowledge. truth is different from known and different from unknown"
everything that we know is product of mind,speech and words, u cant know anything with out the help of any one of the faculties, so its different from known and also its different from unknown. therefore theorizing is foolishness and the beauty of the Upanishads lies there. by theorizing the truth in various ways (in an exalted language that which a human mind can comprehend) it finally declares truth cannot be theorized. they used their theories just to give you insight that it cannot be theorized and the seeker have to stop theorizing and look beyond words,mind and speech to know the truth- their ultimate declaration is that- know that place as SELF where mind,word, and speech failed to reach, what ever you believe apart from that place is not reality.. you have to know its different from known and knowable and unknown. so wats the way? swami vivekananda said- "This universe of ours, the universe of the senses, the rational, the intellectual, is bounded on both sides by the illimitable, the unknowable, the ever unknown. Herein is the search, herein are the inquiries, here are the facts; from this comes the light which is known to the world as religion. Essentially, however, religion belongs to the supersensuous and not to the sense plane. It is beyond all reasoning and is not on the plane of intellect. It is a vision, an inspiration, a plunge into the unknown and unknowable, making the unknowable more than known for it can never be "known". so a master as well as a seeker will reach a helpless state where he can neither explain it or avoid it or remain silent when some one ask its. rishis said the truth from that helpless state to those seekers who can understand their words beyond literary meaning. or we can say upanishad is only for those who can take meaning without meaning it .. so i totally agree with you that i have theorized to explain the truth which is a failure..
you asked me about desire and desire less and you said desire less state is also a desire. i agree with you that desire less is also a desire. because as i said in earlier post that, words dont have much power so, we cannot say desire less in any other way. but let me tell you one thing that desire less is not a desire coz its a state or its a consciousness. that desire less will sprouts only when all other desires cease. so what can we say about that state now? we have not reached a state where desires have stopped. so what ever we say about a desire less state is a speculation about it.. when you reach that state then you can understand it, and then you will get the right answer about that state.. what ever i said will become insignificant in that state..
renunciation of body consciousness not renunciation. normally renunciation means giving up something. its right only in material. wen we say renounce body consiconess means, not renouncing anything, nor giving up anything, it just mean give up your false notion than you are body. so its the renunciation of ignorance or regain the truth on the same time. that is a state not a thought, and state is different from thought. a state don't need any thought to explain that state..
contradiction is always there in life.when you look it from this side then its true but when you look from another side it will be false. a vedanthi dont mind contradictions much because, he knows what he said is right and wrong at the same time.when you start to explain it then you are limiting truth to senses and mind which is blasphemy. one glass can contain only one glass of water, not more than one. so is mind and senses, it cannot understand something which is greater than that. the nature of truth is limitless, the teacher try to explain the truth is making it compressed, that itself is contradictory(he knows it more clearly than the listener). when one who rises to a state were one can understand the truth beyond words and mind then only he will raise beyond contradictions. for him right and wrong are only different sides of the same coin. up to that time there are contradictions.
realizing the truth and realizing the limitation of mind is synonymous to each other. because one cannot understand the truth with the faculty of mind, so wen one start to know that very clearly then he is holding a firm grip in truth. so its obvious that to know limitless you have to know limits, know this limit then limitless will be known by itself is the teaching, from this you can understand the nature of spiritual text and what they are trying to say and teach..
the way or rishis is like this. they just said "what is ought to be said' their words are subtle and abstract so take its meaning and at the same don't take any meaning. this is the way they explained the truth and the choice is the with seeker, he can listen,read,think,meditate and realize it as they did. if you are not satisfied with them then you can choose your own way. so its up to you to choose your way..
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